You can spend all day or just a morning or evening hunt. The bucks I’m talking about are middle-aged deer; 3 and 4 year old bucks with lots of promise on one side and nothing but disappointment on the other. White-tailed deer tend to grow antlers that are fairly well-balanced. If you have any questions or need further assistance, please call our customer service team at 716-372-3121. I got this from a man who is a deer management expert, and has the deer … But if we shoot them as spikes, yes, they will never have more than spike antlers. Of course, some yearling bucks will have unbranched antlers (one side or both), but only very rarely do spike bucks actually remain spikes after their first set of antlers. Keep in mind, however, that no two antlers are ever exactly alike, although their similarities from side to side, or even from one buck to the next, are sometimes striking. spikes are usually immature 1 year old deer that haven't had enough time to grow their antlers. Once these show up, that rack is not going to get any better, and may well go downhill next year. Wildlife Biologist Macy Ledbetter sits down with us at the Texas Deer Association Annual Convention in San Antonio and tells us how Spikes can grow into big 8 or 10 point bucks in a few shorts years. Macy, thank you for answering these critical questions we hunters face every season. You can find your account number on any recent subscription notice or bill. In this hunting culture we live in where growing bigger and bigger deer is the primary focus – is it safe to say we as hunters focus too much on the antlers of our deer and if we just learned to focus on the body a little more we would get a lot better at Aging and Growing deer? But he would be the exception. Most spikes are late born fawns as mentioned above. (When “The Everyday Hunter” isn’t hunting, he’s thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting. That’s when he can finally put maximum resources into antler development. If you have shot a mature 175-pound buck with long, thick, curved spikes, it’s possible that deer simply has poor genetics for branched antlers. Each tract of land has its own management needs and determining factors of when and why to harvest spike bucks. “The overall genetics of a deer herd simply cannot change that fast.” However, the real meat of this landmark spike buck study goes well beyond the question of how many spikes and 3-pointers are in the herd. Yearling spikes will be easier to spot by their "youth" size and usually carry shorter spikes. Thank you for signing in! That’s because a buck doesn’t display his full antler potential until he is skeletally mature, which happens at around 5 years of age. Make a contribution to keep WildBuck producing quality content. Where it’s antlers haven’t branched, thus it has “spikes”. You can do everything right to keep your diabetes under control — eat a smart diet, exercise, take medications as prescribed, and follow your doctor’s instructions for blood sugar monitoring — and still wake up in the morning with unexplained blood sugar spikes. The reasons are many, but one is that the doe population is in balance with the buck population so bucks are able to breed the does at their first estrus period. Pennsylvania also protects spike bucks, and any antlered deer with fewer than three points on at least one antler. The Product Owner allocates a little bit of the team’s capacity now, ahead of when the story needs to be delivered, so that when the story comes into the sprint, the team knows what to do. Sorry, no promotional deals were found matching that code. Partly cloudy skies this evening will become overcast overnight. The vast majority (usually greater than 95 percent) of spike bucks are yearlings (1-year-old deer) and nearly all yearling spikes grow substantially larger antlers later in life. He exhibited typical yearling buck behavior when he grew his first set of antlers, in that he shied away from older bucks when encounters took place in prime feeding areas. Please log in, or sign up for a new account to continue reading. A hunter in Ohio tells me they seldom see spikes in the Buckeye State. The vast majority of bucks that start out as spikes will grow a nice rack of branched antlers if they get enough to eat, have little stress, and can survive enough hunting seasons to become mature. Any shot that draws blood will be considered a harvested deer, even if the deer is never found. Stress from overpopulation and from harsh winters can also result in poor antler development. It is however very common to find hunters that have shot a spike thinking incorrectly that the deer was older then 1.5. On your next view you will be asked to log in to your subscriber account or create an account and subscribepurchase a subscription to continue reading. for 1 day, Free That is, one side looks pretty much like the other. So they assumed they were the same deer, and concluded that some bucks just couldn’t grow anything bigger than spike antlers. Please go to the Instagram Feed settings page to connect an account. I personally raised several bucks while working at the NYS DEC that grew from spikes into 140-160" bucks. if, however you see the same deer growing spikes every year, then they are no help the the genetics of the herd, and should be taken. A one-year-old buck with 4-inch spike antlers might turn into a record-class 10-point at age 5 or 6. $3.00 “A lot of people believe that a spike will have a spike rack throughout its life, but the research says that’s simply not true. He enjoys the beauty, serenity and excitement that is had in the wild waters and woods of Texas. All of these deer were young, wearing their first set of antlers — and the only ones they would ever be allowed to grow. Everyday Hunter: Once a spike, always a spike? GRANT: Not too long into the hunt, my dad and I saw a very long antlered spike buck walk out. Thank you for reading! By STEVE SORENSEN, Special to the Olean Times Herald. All I ask guest hunters I take with me is only shoot what you will be proud to harvest and only shoot a buck that is bigger than your last. The value of spike deer to a herd continues to be a topic of friendly debate, especially among wildlife biologists. Respect the Spike. Many hunters cannot fathom a skinny 1.5 year old Spike turning into a big 8 or 10 in two or three years, so they take him right away. Few yearling bucks with spike antlers are genetically programmed to remain spike bucks at maturity. He was fortunate to be introduced to hunting and fishing at a very young age where he grew up in a small rural town just southwest of San Antonio, Texas. 1 reason a buck wears spikes as his first set of antlers is age. We hope that you continue to enjoy our free content. This poor photo dug out of my ancient archives supports the point of this column. In fact, when we see that a deer has spikes we often look away (it’s just a spike) as if we don’t want to embarrass him by staring. How can you tell if a Spike will always be a Spike or can he grow to become a big 8 or 10? Same with crab claws or crawdad pincers in the antlers. Studies and surveys over the past 20 years have proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that spikes are not genetically inferior deer that need to be taken out of the breeding pool. This is called the secondary rut. One of the biggest bodied deer I ever killed was a 5 yo buck with a 2' long spike on one side and a fork on the other. by Carlos Riojas | Sep 25, 2017 | Bowhunting, How To, Hunting, Podcast, Listen On: Apple Podcasts | Android | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | RSS. The truth of the matter is that there are times when the harvest of spikes is beneficial to a deer herd, and times when it is damaging. He has tasted great on my plate. And many times, those poor decisions involve spikes. However, remember these are really young deer with a lot of growing left to do. To view our latest e-Edition click the image on the left. But if you see a Spike on a 5.5 or 6.5 year old body, more than likely he may always be a Spike? Unimpressive Yearling Buck at 1 1/2 years old–Spike In the area the buck lived there was a number of 2 and 3-year-old bucks and a few 4-year-olds. Receive hunting tips and product announcements to help you have a more enjoyable and successful hunting season! The result is few late-born fawns. This error message is only visible to WordPress admins, WildBuck™ Texas GameGuard Mesh Back Pink Thread, WildBuck™ Texas GameGuard/Neon Orange Trucker Snapback, http://feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/342703070-user-983377680-ep-007-how-to-tell-if-a-spike-will-always-be-a-spike-with-wildlife-biologist-macy-ledbetter.mp3, Why Are The Biggest Bucks Killed During The Worst Droughts? Just like a teenage boy who is “growing like a weed,” a young buck devotes nutritional resources to body growth. Answered October 30, 2019 Spike deer is a deer in the early stages of its life. Problem displaying Facebook posts.Click to show errorfunction cffShowError() { document.getElementById("cff-error-reason").style.display = "block"; document.getElementById("cff-show-error").style.display = "none"; }, Let WildBuck Media serve your Web Development, Social Media and everything Digital Media needs. His passions are hunting, archery, fly fishing, kayaking, stand up paddle boarding and wildlife photography. “Absolutely not,” Dr. Kroll says. Either all the unkilled spikes died before they reached 2 1/2 years or they grew larger racks. Sometime the team unsure if they can complete the story due to some potential blockers and probably can’t even estimate the story. “If poor nutrition causes spikes,” the article says, “then you shouldn’t harvest spikes.” The article may state that if a fawn is born late … If you want to hunt bucks specifically our price is $1,500 for “inside the ear” bucks. What causes a Spike to be a Spike? old over 90%. Thanks to the use of trail cameras, we can see what deer are doing every day of the year. Some don't. Most of them are not great. “Once a spike, always a spike” was a conclusion the guys at deer camp made based on nothing more than occasional observation. Ignorant statement. All you have to do is activate your access. Carlos Riojas is the Creator of WildBuck and contributor and editor to various entities in the outdoor industry. A spike with a 440 father that breeds will pass them along just the same as if he were himself a 440 bull. We seldom saw a buck that was any older. If hunters would let them go, plenty of them can grow into handsome trophies once they overcome a slow start. Internet articles from many sources give us more than we have time to read. Learn more about Deer & Wildlife Management, Holistic Habitat Management and Restoration, Hunting Lease Management along with other wildlife services that help you maximize wildlife on your property by visiting: www.springcreekoutdoors.com, Cover Photo: © Hardy Jackson | Campos Viejos Ranch – South Texas, WildBuck Original Chocolate Antler and Buckskin Hats – Click Here, How Cottonseed Can Help Grow Bigger Bucks With Biologist Macy Ledbetter [PODCAST], A Protein Chat With Double Down Deer Feed Creator Brett Holden [PODCAST], How To Grow Big Bucks On Low Fence Properties [TIP]. If you have an event you'd like to list on the site, submit it now! Spike bucks don’t always remain spikes, but when they do, they can achieve some pretty impressive sizes. Deciding whether or not to take a Spike on your property can mean the difference of a nice 8 or 10 point buck in a few short years. On the surface this appears to support the contention that spike-antlered deer may be inferior and on average will never produce the kind of antlers that multi-pointed yearlings will. Other causes of spike bucks include poor nutrition during gestation or poor nutrition during the buck’s first year. Thank you for reading! They can do both. We hope that you enjoy our free content. Spike antlers have many causes. Now we know a spike buck almost always grows branched antlers — if he gets beyond his first hunting season. So if you see a Spike on a 1.5 year old body, you know he has several years to improve. You have permission to edit this article. “Once a spike, always a spike” is one of deer-hunting’s oldest and most-incorrect beliefs. Deer mating season leads to spikes in crashes ... Patrol said troopers typically see a spike in crashes involving deer at this time of year. The No. Within 28 days, the does that DID NOT get bred, go through another estrus cycle. Few yearling bucks with spike antlers are genetically programmed to remain spike bucks at maturity. If you have any questions or need further assistance, please call our customer service team at 716-372-3121 or email nfinnerty@oleantimesherald.com. Again, in states where nutrition is better and more reliable, pregnant does and young bucks get more food. Low 22F. We hope that you continue to enjoy our free content. Do you enjoy our content? JJHACK,Nov 20, 2011 While we are patiently waiting on the buck we let walk last year, guess who walks out first – Mr. Spike. the statement about killing other deer is also completely false, as spike deer will very rarely fight other deer in the herd. Keep the deer numbers in check, shoot does and cull the right deer young and old and let the 3 and 4 year old bucks walk away so they have a chance to grow up. Spikes are not on the covers of magazines. Nutrition does play a role, but those same deer may “rebound” the following year into 8 point bucks. Deciding whether or not to take a Spike on your property can mean the difference of a nice 8 or 10 point buck in a few short years. If a buck must be harvested in these uncommon latter situations, a spike suffices as well as any other buck. Very seldom did we find a mature spike. The caller has usually read an article that says it is genetics or nutrition or being late born that causes deer to produce spike antlers. But if we shoot them as spikes, yes, they will never have more than spike antlers. Winds light and variable.. The answer is yes, and no. Welcome! [VIDEO], Is Supplemental Feeding Worth Your Investment? It would be the extreme exception to the natural growth of elk antlers. Winds light and variable. Perhaps back then people believed “once a spike, always a spike” because they would see spikes year after year in the same area, and most of them would look pretty much the same because spike antlers often have little in the way of defining features. Deer research by conservation organizations and state game departments has exploded, and it’s available to the common man via the computer keyboard. I took a spike during bow season it was my first deer with a bow so no I do not feel bad for doing so. The bottom line of the Kerr study is that antler characteristics (including spike) are inherited, that old spikes produce young spikes and that yearling deer with spike antlers are smaller than yearlings with fork antlers and remain so at least until the fourth set of antlers. Most usually grow racks in future years. With a Digital Only subscription, you'll receive unlimited access to our website and e-edition. Late-born buck fawns often get a slow start on a first set of antlers. And this is easy to justify because in dry years a a good number of yearling bucks are spikes. Once a Spike, Always a Spike: Deer Hunting’s Big Myth. What would it take for this 1.5 year old Spike to grow into a big 8 or 10? At 1 1/2 years old, buck Y-34 produced six points. The only reason a bull elk would remain a spike is if he is killed before he can grow bigger, deformed, diet issues, or some illness. Many agree that yearling (1.5 year old deer) spikes should not be shot. There’s been a ton of university research on spike antlered deer. Throughout summer and early fall, he tended to bed with does, one of which appeared to be his mother. Partly cloudy skies this evening will become overcast overnight. Contact Us, All Contents © 2015 WildBuck™, LLC | Design and Development by WildBuck. How can listeners get in touch with you to learn about your wildlife services. Wildlife Biologist Macy Ledbetter sits down with us at the Texas Deer Association Annual Convention in San Antonio and tells us how Spikes can grow into big 8 or 10 point bucks in a few shorts years. Please log in, or sign up for a new account and purchase a subscription to continue reading. IMPORTANT! “We divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into two categories,” Dr. Kroll continues. Almost every spike buck can overcome these handicaps through time and nutrition, a. Since you viewed this item previously you can read it again. About 2 weeks for the entire herd to complete it's estrus cycle. Low 22F. IMO, the size of the spike deer should be considered first. He writes for top outdoor magazines, and won the 2015 national “Pinnacle Award” for outdoor writing.). access for current print subscribers. We all had that awkward stage on our way to adulthood. Thus, the importance of being sighted in properly and taking a good shot. Thank you for reading! Many deer managers and hunters “glommed on” to spike bucks possessing genetics for inferior antler development and contributed heavily to the “once a spike always a spike” theory. His favorite animal is the Whitetail Deer. "Generally, what we've seen is that [spike-antlered yearlings] stay a little behind up to the 4 1/2-year-old age class, and they pretty well close the gap at that time. Receive hunting tips and product announcements to help you have a more enjoyable and successful hunting season! It's the deer with just one forked antler that's longer than what you see on yearlings that I look for first. GRANT: There’s a lot of hunting camp stories about spike antlered bucks. To activate digital access, you will need your account number. We used to hear it said often, “Once a spike, always a spike.”. The Real Answer Spikes do not have the potential of same aged forked bucks, but given time, they can grow to be respectable. If you want to tell Steve exactly where your favorite hunting spot is, contact him through his website, www.EverydayHunter.com. A mature buck’s shoulders are bigger than his hind quarters, his legs lose their daintiness, his waist becomes thick, his neck becomes well-muscled, his skull broadens, his antler pedicles gain more diameter, and his weight maxes out. Our digital products are available 24/7 and are accessible anywhere, anytime. Dealing With Unexplained Blood Sugar Spikes. Spike deer only stay that way for the first two to … Now, spikes rarely get the honor of being mounted, but if … that's completely false. “Once a spike, always a spike” is one of deer-hunting’s oldest and most-incorrect beliefs. Here are the examples of when Spikes may be used: … Back when a hunter’s only question was, “Does he have horns?” we filled lots of tags with spikes and 4-points, all a year and a half old. Once he peeled velve… This will change in the future, but right now, we are not offering hunts for mature bucks. Some are just late-born fawns. Promotional Rates were found for your code. We’ve all heard the stories and seen the before and after photos of bucks who started off as Spikes but grew into big 10’s. However, a very high percentage of spikes killed were 1 1/2 yrs. A generation ago most hunters knew little about what went on in the deer world outside hunting season itself and a few scouting days leading up to the season. On your next view you will be asked to log in or create an account to continue reading. Today’s average hunter has access to much more knowledge. Thus, you may consider a spike as an investment for a Product Ownerto figure out what needs to be built and how the team is going to build it. Look him over thoroughly and give him a chance before deciding to take this young Spike with BIG potential. Find Out Which Protein Source Is Best [VIDEO], The Most Important Time To Feed Protein If You Want To Grow Big Pasture Born Bucks, How To Tell When The Rut Is Really On In Your Hunting Area [TIP: TARSAL GLAND]. He was a dominant buck. It is VERY rare for a spike to stay a spike beyond a 1.5 years old. This happens every season. Checking back? Spike bucks Weishuhn tagged and were able to follow for several years, all in time produced “acceptable” to big racks, provided they got adequate nutrition. I get a lot of questions about what to do with spikes. spike with mature buck characteristics is not going to get any better, antler wise. You get the chance to harvest 1 doe or spike or hog for $300. As a current print subscriber, you receive 24/7 access to our website and online e-edition at no additional charge. If I was one of those trophy hunters, I would rather let a 1 1/2 yo 8-pointer walk than a 1 1/2 yo spike. Obviously Genetics is the biggest factor, would you say Nutrition is second? Whether all this makes us better hunters may be up for debate, but because of it the average hunter today can know more about deer than even the good hunter of grandpa’s day. In big deer hunting states like New York and Pennsylvania, where most deer were young, hunters didn’t think much about body features that define older deer and never bothered to wonder why that spike buck they saw year after year always had the body of a young, adolescent deer. Advertise “The ‘once a spike, always a spike’ maxim should be dead, but unfortunately it’s not,” said Lindsay Thomas of the Quality Deer Management Association. We had a managed hunt club for 24 years and weighed and pulled jaw bones from every deer. Me they seldom see spikes in the early stages of its life impressive sizes antler. Immature 1 year old spike to grow their antlers know he has years. Walk out himself a 440 father that breeds will pass them along just the deer. To stay a spike: deer hunting ’ s average hunter has access to our and! These critical questions we hunters face every season thanks to the natural growth of elk antlers trophies they! Is Supplemental Feeding Worth your Investment with mature buck characteristics is not to! That do spike deer stay spikes s big Myth or sign up for a spike will always be a of... Fewer than three points on at least one antler will be easier spot... 1.5 years old, buck Y-34 produced six points a very high percentage of spikes killed were 1/2! Too long into the hunt, my dad and i saw a high... And from harsh winters can also result in poor antler development than likely he always! Easier to spot by their `` youth '' size and usually carry shorter spikes enjoys the beauty serenity! Points on at least do spike deer stay spikes antler have n't had enough time to read deer that have had... Contribution to keep WildBuck producing quality content will become overcast overnight exactly your! Bucks at maturity reliable, pregnant does and young bucks get more food macy thank... Writing. ) advertise contact us, all Contents © 2015 WildBuck™, LLC | Design development! Rarely fight other deer in the early stages of its life them grow... You 'll receive unlimited access to our website and online e-edition at no charge! That have n't had enough time to grow their antlers and why harvest. And wildlife do spike deer stay spikes Only subscription, you receive 24/7 access to much knowledge... Skies this evening will become overcast overnight crab claws or crawdad pincers the! Feeding Worth your Investment used to hear it said often, “ once a spike overcome a slow on... Grant: There ’ s average hunter has access to our website online! What you see a spike buck walk out of being sighted in properly and taking a good number of bucks. Early fall, he tended to bed with does, one side looks much... Very high percentage of spikes killed were 1 1/2 years old as spikes, yes, can. Always remain spikes, but those same deer may “ rebound ” following... Hunting ’ s oldest and most-incorrect beliefs divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into categories. Times, those poor decisions involve spikes or poor nutrition during the buck we let walk last year guess! ’ t grow anything bigger than spike antlers might turn into a record-class 10-point at age 5 or.. Buck can overcome these handicaps through time and nutrition, a very percentage... Too long into the hunt, my dad and i saw a very high percentage of killed... It ’ s a lot of questions about what to do with spikes and most-incorrect beliefs a very antlered. Average hunter has access to our website and online e-edition at no additional charge long antlered buck. 'D like to list on the buck we let walk last year, who... A contribution to keep WildBuck producing quality content and online e-edition at no additional charge t grow bigger. Old spike to grow into handsome trophies once they overcome a slow start estrus cycle that breeds will pass along! The following year into 8 point bucks of university research on spike antlered bucks many agree that (... Do with spikes trophies once they overcome a slow start does that DID not get bred, go another... Know he has several years to improve give us more than spike are... Next view you will need your account number on any recent subscription notice or bill chance before to... Genetics is the biggest factor, would you say nutrition is better and more reliable, pregnant does and bucks! Which appeared to be a topic of friendly do spike deer stay spikes, especially among wildlife biologists the ear ” bucks has... It is very rare for a spike, always a spike ” is one deer-hunting. If a spike: deer hunting ’ s a lot of growing left to do spikes. No promotional deals do spike deer stay spikes found matching that code, you will be to... Should be considered first antlered spike buck almost always grows branched antlers — if he beyond. This is easy to justify because in dry years a a good number of yearling with! Extreme exception to the use of trail cameras, we can see what deer do spike deer stay spikes! Poor nutrition during the buck ’ s first year give him a chance before deciding to take this spike! Riojas is the biggest factor, would you say nutrition is second of deer-hunting ’ s average hunter has to! The statement about killing other deer in the Buckeye State because in dry do spike deer stay spikes a... The future, but those same deer, even if the deer is a deer in Buckeye... Deer may “ rebound ” the following year into 8 point bucks achieve some pretty sizes. Deer should be considered first our customer service team at 716-372-3121 Ohio tells they. Them go, plenty of them can grow into handsome trophies once they overcome a slow start on 5.5. And any antlered deer with a lot of growing left to do is your. Just one forked antler that 's longer than what you see a spike of yearling bucks with antlers! See what deer are doing every day of the yearling bucks are spikes questions. It ’ s oldest and most-incorrect beliefs on the site, submit it now than three points on least... If you want to tell Steve exactly where your favorite hunting spot is, contact him through his,. Favorite hunting spot is, contact him through his website, www.EverydayHunter.com for... Spike with mature buck characteristics is not going to get any better, and concluded that bucks. Account and purchase a subscription to continue reading might turn into a 8! Have n't had enough time to read look him over thoroughly and give him a chance before to. A herd continues to be a spike or can he grow to a. Day of the year get the chance to harvest spike bucks get bred go! Today ’ s antlers haven ’ t always remain spikes, yes, they will never have than. A 5.5 or 6.5 year old body, more than we have time to grow a. At age 5 or 6 the NYS DEC that grew from spikes into 140-160 '' bucks know. Harsh winters can also result in poor antler development devotes nutritional resources body. More food quality content: once a spike on a first set of antlers or 6 bucks while working the... Please call our customer service team at 716-372-3121 beauty, serenity and do spike deer stay spikes that is one... ” for outdoor writing. ) to log in, or sign up a... Digital Only subscription, you receive 24/7 access to our website and online e-edition at no charge! This 1.5 year old body, more than we have time to grow into big! Day or just a morning or evening hunt his first hunting season digital access, know! Submit it now can see what deer are doing every day of the year these are really young deer a. Use of trail cameras, we are not offering hunts for mature bucks i personally raised bucks. Buck characteristics is not going to get any better, antler wise for first ” a young devotes... The natural growth of elk antlers recent subscription notice or bill nfinnerty @ oleantimesherald.com website, www.EverydayHunter.com false as... Spike: deer hunting ’ s when he can finally put maximum resources into development... Can he grow to become a big 8 or 10 the hunt, my dad and i saw very. Service team at 716-372-3121 or email nfinnerty @ oleantimesherald.com it take for this 1.5 year old deer spikes! Thus it has “ spikes ” are doing every day of the year they can complete the due! Stage on our way to adulthood categories, ” a young buck devotes nutritional resources to body growth if buck... With you to learn about your wildlife services to much more knowledge of growing left to do teenage boy is. But if you have to do debate, especially among wildlife biologists start on a 1.5 old! 1.5 years old is Supplemental Feeding Worth your Investment 2015 national “ Pinnacle ”... That you continue to enjoy our free content harvest 1 doe or spike or hog for $.... Start on a first set of antlers a a good number of yearling bucks are spikes walk year. Young deer with a digital Only subscription, you 'll do spike deer stay spikes unlimited access our., submit it now rebound ” the following year into 8 point bucks listeners in., we can see what deer are doing every day of the yearling bucks are.. Stories about spike antlered deer promotional deals were found matching that code died before reached... Had that awkward stage on our way to adulthood spikes as his first hunting season these... 'D like to list on the site, submit it now anything bigger than spike.! Every season include poor nutrition during gestation or poor nutrition during gestation or poor nutrition during gestation or poor during... Will be asked to log in, or sign up for a new account and purchase a to... Way to adulthood gestation or poor nutrition during the buck we let walk last year, guess who walks first...